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	<title>Comments on: D&#038;D 3.5 Skill System</title>
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	<link>http://www.errantdreams.com/thoughts/2007/07/14/dd-35-skill-system/</link>
	<description>"You never paint what you see or think you see. You paint with a thousand vibrations the blow that struck you."     --Nicholas de Stael</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 15:47:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: heather</title>
		<link>http://www.errantdreams.com/thoughts/2007/07/14/dd-35-skill-system/#comment-1235</link>
		<dc:creator>heather</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2007 15:14:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.errantdreams.com/thoughts/2007/07/14/dd-35-skill-system/#comment-1235</guid>
		<description>Yeah, it would probably end up being too much, although it might depend on how wide a variety of skills were available for use and how hard they got used. Like I said---errant thoughts and speculation, without any actual playtesting or beating on. :) There might be some way to modify it such that it worked, but I just haven't taken it that far yet.

I still can't buy the Int thing. Maybe it's 'cause I went to MIT &#038; Harvard for a while. I've met so many folks who were book-learnin' smart (since wisdom is the common-sense smarts, Int is fairly restricted in its purview) who wouldn't have been very good at, say, plumbing or dancing, while I've met plenty of folks who were brilliant painters or farmers or the like who couldn't necessarily calculate their way through the dinner check at a restaurant. Int's relationship to skill is sidelong at best, IMO.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, it would probably end up being too much, although it might depend on how wide a variety of skills were available for use and how hard they got used. Like I said&#8212;errant thoughts and speculation, without any actual playtesting or beating on. <img src='http://www.errantdreams.com/thoughts/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> There might be some way to modify it such that it worked, but I just haven&#8217;t taken it that far yet.</p>
<p>I still can&#8217;t buy the Int thing. Maybe it&#8217;s &#8217;cause I went to MIT &#038; Harvard for a while. I&#8217;ve met so many folks who were book-learnin&#8217; smart (since wisdom is the common-sense smarts, Int is fairly restricted in its purview) who wouldn&#8217;t have been very good at, say, plumbing or dancing, while I&#8217;ve met plenty of folks who were brilliant painters or farmers or the like who couldn&#8217;t necessarily calculate their way through the dinner check at a restaurant. Int&#8217;s relationship to skill is sidelong at best, IMO.</p>
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		<title>By: brcarl</title>
		<link>http://www.errantdreams.com/thoughts/2007/07/14/dd-35-skill-system/#comment-1229</link>
		<dc:creator>brcarl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2007 14:43:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.errantdreams.com/thoughts/2007/07/14/dd-35-skill-system/#comment-1229</guid>
		<description>[Linked her from a comment you made over at Treasure Tables.  Nice stuff!]

I understand your reasoning behind having attribute modifiers indicate the number of points you can put into a correlated skill at level up, but I wonder if that kind of positive spiral might end up being unbalanced:  if a fighter starts with 17 STR (+3), and then bumps to 18 at level 4, that's an awful lot of points to put into STR-based skills, PLUS his inherent attribute bonus.

Also, I think the reasoning behind skill point bonuses for high INT is an attempt to reflect how smart people are better at things they've put effort into.  A smart but average strength guy who has worked at (ie., studied) Climbing will probably be just as good as a naturally strong guy who's of average intelligence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[Linked her from a comment you made over at Treasure Tables.  Nice stuff!]</p>
<p>I understand your reasoning behind having attribute modifiers indicate the number of points you can put into a correlated skill at level up, but I wonder if that kind of positive spiral might end up being unbalanced:  if a fighter starts with 17 STR (+3), and then bumps to 18 at level 4, that&#8217;s an awful lot of points to put into STR-based skills, PLUS his inherent attribute bonus.</p>
<p>Also, I think the reasoning behind skill point bonuses for high INT is an attempt to reflect how smart people are better at things they&#8217;ve put effort into.  A smart but average strength guy who has worked at (ie., studied) Climbing will probably be just as good as a naturally strong guy who&#8217;s of average intelligence.</p>
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		<title>By: heather</title>
		<link>http://www.errantdreams.com/thoughts/2007/07/14/dd-35-skill-system/#comment-1067</link>
		<dc:creator>heather</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2007 22:11:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.errantdreams.com/thoughts/2007/07/14/dd-35-skill-system/#comment-1067</guid>
		<description>That's what I mean by retaining the C/cc as a balancer, though. You could give all the classes the same number of skill points, yet give those classes that require a lot of skills plenty of class skills. It's the same solution, but patched in one manner instead of two---basically the same thing but simpler, IMO.

The Saga Star Wars system you mention sounds interesting, although I still have the same objection to universally using Int to determine how many skills someone can pick up. That's just a long-time pet peeve of mine, though. I haven't looked at True20 or Perfect20. So many systems, so few lifetimes!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s what I mean by retaining the C/cc as a balancer, though. You could give all the classes the same number of skill points, yet give those classes that require a lot of skills plenty of class skills. It&#8217;s the same solution, but patched in one manner instead of two&#8212;basically the same thing but simpler, IMO.</p>
<p>The Saga Star Wars system you mention sounds interesting, although I still have the same objection to universally using Int to determine how many skills someone can pick up. That&#8217;s just a long-time pet peeve of mine, though. I haven&#8217;t looked at True20 or Perfect20. So many systems, so few lifetimes!</p>
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		<title>By: ScottM</title>
		<link>http://www.errantdreams.com/thoughts/2007/07/14/dd-35-skill-system/#comment-1059</link>
		<dc:creator>ScottM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jul 2007 20:36:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.errantdreams.com/thoughts/2007/07/14/dd-35-skill-system/#comment-1059</guid>
		<description>Skill points are a boost that some classes currently get that you'll need to compensate for another way.  Right now, Rogues, Scouts, Bards, and Rangers are all get extra skill points (6-8/level)-- if everyone else got the same number, they'd be less relatively appealing.

As far as the bookkeeping, I think that lots of recent releases are better about it.  In Saga Star Wars, "Skill points have been eliminated. Characters have a number of trained skills they can pick based on their class and Intelligence bonus. When a character makes a skill check, they roll a d20 and add half their character level + any other bonuses. If they roll for a trained skill they get a +5 bonus to the die roll. Skills themselves have been simplified with such skills as Deception covering the former skills of Bluff, Disguise, and Forgery. The Mechanics skill now encompasses all the Repair skills and Demolitions. Likewise, the new Perception skill combines the Spot, Search, Sense Motive, and Listen skills."  (from Wikipedia)

That system looks like it makes a lot of sense, both in cutting down meaningless paperwork [how often does 1 skill point allocation do something?] and making skill specialization useful enough to take.

True20 and Perfect20 both go along similar routes-- decreasing the number of skills and restrictions and decreasing the level by level paperwork.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Skill points are a boost that some classes currently get that you&#8217;ll need to compensate for another way.  Right now, Rogues, Scouts, Bards, and Rangers are all get extra skill points (6-8/level)&#8211; if everyone else got the same number, they&#8217;d be less relatively appealing.</p>
<p>As far as the bookkeeping, I think that lots of recent releases are better about it.  In Saga Star Wars, &#8220;Skill points have been eliminated. Characters have a number of trained skills they can pick based on their class and Intelligence bonus. When a character makes a skill check, they roll a d20 and add half their character level + any other bonuses. If they roll for a trained skill they get a +5 bonus to the die roll. Skills themselves have been simplified with such skills as Deception covering the former skills of Bluff, Disguise, and Forgery. The Mechanics skill now encompasses all the Repair skills and Demolitions. Likewise, the new Perception skill combines the Spot, Search, Sense Motive, and Listen skills.&#8221;  (from Wikipedia)</p>
<p>That system looks like it makes a lot of sense, both in cutting down meaningless paperwork [how often does 1 skill point allocation do something?] and making skill specialization useful enough to take.</p>
<p>True20 and Perfect20 both go along similar routes&#8211; decreasing the number of skills and restrictions and decreasing the level by level paperwork.</p>
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